Apr
7
Vosotros: What’s in it for YOU?
Learn Spanish in Spain and you will be soaked in the second-person informal plural pronoun — vosotros. Outside the classroom, on the streets, in the bars, on TV, in the movies, in other words, everywhere you go, you will be exposed to vosotros, the informal plural pronoun that means “you” in Spanish. But if you learn Spanish outside of Europe, especially in the Americas, vosotros typically isn’t on the grammar menu. Yeah, sure, many teachers will tell you about it, but the focus is generally on the formal ustedes pronoun because that is what is commonly used in the Americas.
Luis Pinel, a Spanish teacher from El Salvador who owns a Spanish-language academy in Melbourne, Australia, thinks it’s time for vosotros to have more prominent usage among Spanish speakers. On his blog he recently wrote a rather convincing entry explaining his reasons why:
1. The wealth of a language is mainly judged by the amount of language resources available to it. The pronoun vosotros and its verb structures are integral part of the Spanish language. They contribute to enrich the written as well as the spoken structures of this language.
2. Using these structures gives more precision and clarity to language usage. Why using the form for the third person plural to mean the second person? The pronoun vosotros and its verb structures already exist in the language and from a purely linguistic point of view there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be used by all native speakers.
I couldn’t agree with him more. One of the cool things about Spanish is that having these different forms of the pronoun “you” enables the speaker to create distinctions and establish hierarchy or closeness just through the use of a simple pronoun. To me it is jarring to hear “ustedes” used with children and among family members. It just seems…odd. I know that it is totally normal, but after living in Spain it still gets my attention whenever I hear the ustedes form used in informal situations that are familial or friendly.
While I like Luis’ idea, having it come to pass (vosotros being used globally) will be hard because Spain represents only about 10% of Spanish speakers globally. There are more native Spanish speakers living outside of Spain than within its borders and their tendency is to use only the ustedes form. Therefore, Spanish speakers in the Americas have the upper hand. Majority rules. Unless it suddenly becomes fashionable to use the vosotros form, ustedes has got nothing to worry about.
What’s your take on this subject? Do use vosotros or ustedes? Would you like there to be more widespread use of vosotros?
If only there was some way for Spaniards to travel to Central and South America and enforce their way of thinking and speaking on the people there. Oh, wait, they did that already.
Vosotros is fine…once you know it. But when you’re learning Spanish, having another conjugation for every single verb that only 10% of the Spanish-speaking world uses is kind of annoying. And I agree that you can’t live in Spain without it.
One of the interesting things about learning a foreign language, for me, at least, is the introspection that it gives you for your own language. Why does your language do something that the other language doesn’t, and vice versa. A native Spanish speaker, for instance, might wonder why English needs two separate verbs for “do” and “make”, when Spanish gets by just fine with only one. Ditto for “ser” and “estar” going the other way. I often wonder if Spanish really needs, or if English would benefit from, the second person dichotomy between formal and informal relationships. Is Spanish really better off because it allows the speaker to “create distinctions and establish hierarchy”? It’s not a simple question.
Sometimes I think Vosotros is over-used in Spain. I feel weird saying “Usted”. And the rules of when to use it are blurry. It has to be a REAL mayor person (older) to get it out of me.
oops, I meant “Tu” is over used. The formal “Ud.” is kind of taking a back seat. “Vosotros” is cool though. I like it.
Ouch Erik. R!
I don’t see much of a problem really. My friends from South America, when referring to our other friends, always uses Ustedes instead of vosotros. As I’m in Madrid learning Spanish, this sounds a bit weird, but I understand it. I don’t think they are going to change to using vosotros instead of usdtedes just because they are in Spain. jaja
I sometimes get annoyed when I hear people using usted(es) over and over again. I have quite come classmates form Latin-America, and every time they use Uds. There are days I can nearly stand it…
Erik, in my opinion, the formal/informal dichotomy makes a language richer. Many languages include that feature, including English(I know it’s not used, but it’s there).
What does not make any sense to me is to teach the tu/usted pair, but not the vosotros form, I mean, there’s a formal/informal for the singular, but not for the plural? It doesn’t make sense.
It’s not only a matter of being able to “create distinctions and establish hierarchy”, it’s also a way of showing respect.
But you are right, it does indeed make distinctions, that’s why usted/ustedes is not used very much in Spain, because it is somehow considered something of the past, when people were not equal.
Regarding ser/estar. I know people are taught we have two verbs for “to be” in Spanish. That’s not exactly true. “Ser” comes from latin “esse”, to be, and “estar” comes from latin “stare”, to stand , and if you think about it, they are used very much in that way still today.
Great comment, Roberto. I expect that most native speakers of languages with formal pronouns agree that it adds richness. Personally, I’m not convinced one way or the other, but I know for sure that the formal pronouns aren’t going away any time soon. I just think it’s an interesting question that is rarely asked.
To play devil’s advocate for a moment..
Any method that allows showing respect is, by definition, also a way that allows showing disdain. If I’m a shopkeeper and I regularly open the door for all of my patrons except one, that person will be insulted. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t show each other respect. Of course we should. I’m just pointing out the counter-argument.
That latin origin of ser and estar was new to me. Very interesting.
You are right Erik, it also allows showing disdain, in many subtle ways, it is a lot of fun. Sometimes, using usted, depending on the tone, and depending on the circumstances, can be considered very rude or even insulting. It’s almost like an art, difficult to master. The art of being respectful and insulting at the same time.
My wife does that to her boss. When he wants to be, he’s the completely unprofessional, friendly, “I wanna be your pal” kind of boss, but she refuses to use anything other than Usted with him. It’s a perfect way for her to constantly remind him of their societal relationship.
I’m curious if there’s an opposite of tutear? Ustedear?
I just found this relevant page on Wikipedia that explains the origin of Usted and vosotros, which I sort of already know, but the explanation is great:
Vuesamerced, uced, usía, vuestra excelencia, vuecelencia, vos….there were a lot of personal pronouns, choosing the wrong one could be a fair cause for a duel..
Chicos, ¡Cómo está el patio!
jejeje. Nah, just kidding. This is great! Thanks to y’all for making this thread much richer with your detailed comments. Special shout out to Roberto for the additional perspective and insight.
Before I posted the original blog entry on this topic, I was talking to my (Spanish) boss about vosotros vs. ustedes and he said almost exactly what Roberto said about using usted to express disdain and scorn in certain situations. The example he gave me was one of a fender bender. The driver who caused the accident hops out of the car and starts addressing the other driver using the tú form, asking if he’s ok, etc. But the driver of the other car is pissed and starts raising a ruckus. So the first driver immediately switches to usted to express his anger and disgust without having to resort to calling the other driver a hijo de p(BLEEP).
I find this kind of stuff, the use of the language in the real world, fascinating. And these are definitely nuances most of us don’t learn in Spanish classes.
I’ve just had a look at your link Erik.
The “vos tenés” used today in the “Cono Sur” was originally a corruption of “vos tenéis”, that was the standard during the “Siglo de Oro” (the XVII century). If you watch a historic movie, like Alatriste, for instance, the characters use the latter all the time. They only use “tu tienes” in very intimate moments, if you know what I mean. They were very formal, apparently.
My mother-tongue, Hindi, has not just two but three words for the second person singular. One is used when showing respect. This is considered the most cultured way of addressing someone irrespective of his or her age, relationship, level of familiarity or social status; the second is used between persons of similar age who are friends or on friendly terms or by an elder person to a younger one; the third form of address is extremely informal and is used by children among themselves, between siblings of similar age or between close friends. This usage is, however, considered extremely rude when used with strangers or mere acquaintances unless you are talking to small children. So Eleena, in case of a fender bender, this is the form of address used over here to insult someone.
@Petrichor, that is so cool. I love learning about these types of nuances in languages.